miniDV transfer question, need help please

[Colorburst300]

Hey,

I was playing with my new miniDV camcorder and trying to get an idea how the quality would be when I burn my video onto a CD. I originally bought it to try and transfer some old videos that would otherwise cost me a fortune to have professionally transferred, and I'm killing two birds here since I still do video photography.

now here's my dilemma - I shot a quick 60 second video, hooked it up to the computer via firewire and into adobe premiere. I captured the video, and saved it. It captured fine, looked great on screen. I didn't do any special editing to it, just wanted to have a source to capture it and then spit it back out onto a CD. So when I decided to burn onto a "VCD" the only option I was allowed in Premiere was .AVI output (please tell me this is bullsh*t because the program cost a fortune) and I'm really not too good with it yet either, but I just wanted to burn a quick video. Well, output to .AVI file, burned the cd with Nero which encodes the .AVI file for VCD compatibility. Played the CD in the DVD player upstairs, and it was totally pixilated. what happened?? It looks just as crappy as when I transferred my hi8 tapes into the computer and back to a CD. i thought this was a digital signal, and why can't I get at least VHS quality on screen when I did it this way? What am I doing wrong? the way I have it it looks worse than video, it doesn't even look like it's running in real time.

Any help would be so greatly appreciated.

~M

[mcarter4121]

VCD is a small crappy format less in quality than VHS. VCD is 352 x 240 or about 1/4 the quality of DVD.

[digvid]

~M -

Yep, VCD can be small and crappy. However, if you try really, really hard, you can get decent results going from MiniDV to VCD.

When you capture video from a MiniDV, you get an avi file. However, VCD uses mpeg files, not avi. The key to getting a good VCD is having the right program to convert from avi to mpeg. In my opinion, there is only one program that does this really well for free, and that is TMPGEnc (www.tmpgenc.net). You can find guides on how to convert DV .avi files to VCD-compatible mpeg files on www.vcdhelp.com.

In your case, I think what was happening is that you were allowing Nero to convert the avi files to mpeg for you (and then burn them to VCD). The problem is that the "encoder" in Nero is not very good, resulting in blocky video. You should still be able to burn your disks with Nero, but there are better programs available for doing this, such as VCDEasy (available for free at www.vcdhelp.com).

Of course, no matter how good the encoder, VCD is still basically half the resolution of MiniDV, and there are other things about it as well that will limit the quality. It will never look as good as DVD or the avi file you got when you first got the video from your MiniDV camera. In can look decent though if you convert from avi to mpeg though.

- digvid

[tubmyk]

So then what do most people do with their finished projects after using Premiere or an editing software, go to VHS? Your comments were well taken, I did find that when I spit the Premiere file back to miniDV, the quality was fantastic on the TV, and I know that if I tape it to VHS the quality will atleast look like real time video.

I did use the TMPEG program and it did encode my test file quite well, and on a regular VCD-1 format it looked pretty good with minimal blocks, some sections it was crystal clear. But this is being seen from a super-8 to miniDV transfer from home; it's all flickery (even with my variable speed projector) and i'm sure this makes it look better pixil-wise than if I actually encoded a regular home video and put it onto VCD.

[digvid]

VCD (i.e., mpeg1) does compress a lot, and it is a very "lossy" compression as well. The same holds true of DVD (mpeg2).

VCD is really a format that you use if you have no better choice. If you have to use it, here are two tricks that will make it look even better (in addition to using a good compressor, like TMPGEnc).

The first trick is to minimize the frame rate of the file. VCD supports three frame rates. They are 23.976, 29.97, and 25 fps. The first two are for video in North America, and 25 fps is for most everywhere else. The rule of thumb is that the lower the frame rate, the better your VCD will look. So the best choice is 23.976. You would need to select this rate in TMPGEnc when you encode your film.

The second trick is to take advantage of the "overscan" area around the borders of your video. This is a band that goes all around your video that you never actually see when you play it on your tv. Your tv actually chops off, or masks out this area. The trick is to shrink your video so that there is a small black band running all the way around your video. I don't know the exact percentage of screen width that this band should be, but it is probably about 8 pixels wide. In any case, when you encode your file, the black band does not take up any of the "bandwidth" and there is more bandwidth left over to represent the actual picture area. There is also the added benefit that you can see more of the picture on the tv set.

This may be more trouble than you want to fool with. But for video fanatics like me who enjoy tinkering, there are various ways to maximize VCD quality.

- digvid

[Nigel]

The problem is compression. The more the format compresses the image/signal the worse it will look. VCD from my understanding compresses a lot. DVD compresses a lot as well.

The difference from my understanding is that DVD is layered so you can have more space to save thus you can use a better compression ratio.

A true full stream set up will cost you hundred of thousands. AVID Symphony was the only kid on the block that could pull it off and as far as I am concerned still can.

Good Luck

[mcarter4121]

Use Premiere to full advantage. If you are able to, capture in 704 ... itur-601. 352 is half of that. If you don't have access to those pixels then just capture in a regular way with the square ones.
Right click on your video in the timeline. Choose video, or click on clip above and choose video, then choose deflicker. If you are using a codec that acts like my old MJPEG did, the two fields will be blended into one, resulting in a little blur but all of the information will be kept. Jaggies and flashing lines will be done away with. The file size will be almost doubled upon export. Export deflickered.
Import that deflickered file. Resize that blended file in Premiere. In export, set the size to 352 x 240 then go to special processing, modify, and choose scale to 352 x 240 and better resize. This will use Premiere to rescale the video and Premiere is the best way to do it.
The file is now ready to encode to VCD using a template in TMPGEnc.
Finally, Nero is used to burn the VCD onto a CD.
That is the way I used to do it. If the video was made with the camera on a tripod it looks better. Also, the elimination of certain pattern in clothing will help a lot. If the video was shot in low light and there is a lot of snow, this method reduces the snow greatly.

Michael

[Colorburst300]

hey michael

thaniks for all the tips on deflicjering, I really appreciate it a lot.

i am actually in the process of trying the steps right now, so I will let you know if i was successful or not. I'm really not to smart when it comes to Adobe products, I think they're quite frustrating.

[Colorburst300]

ok

I tried the deflicker option but it didn't get rid of any of the flickering. Believe me, the flicker is VERY bad, and this was with a variable speed projector and shutter setting on my miniDV camera...i'm very disappointed with the outcome. but regardless, do I need a different codec to make this work? I would think Premiere comes with everything I need, but you know how it is when they're making money....

let me know

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Colorburst300:

I tried the deflicker option but it didn't get rid of any of the flickering. Believe me, the flicker is VERY bad, and this was with a variable speed projector and shutter setting on my miniDV camera</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

The deflicker function in Premier isn't meant to remove flicker originating from synch problems in a super 8 transfer. The deflicker function is designed to eliminate the alternating effect one gets when fine detail exists only on a single rastor line of the video and that detail flashes on and off 30 times a second.

It sounds to me like you have two different issues:

A) Flicker in the original transfer

B) Compression for MPEG or VCD usage

I believe others have addressed the compression issue better than me.

To rid yourself of flicker (assuming you're using NTSC) you need to do several things:

1) Make SURE that your camera is at 1/60th second shutter speed.

2) Make sure that you can bring your projector up to 20fps.

If your camera is at anything higher than 1/60th, you will get mombo flicker. If you projector is at anything other than 20fps, you will get mombo flicker.

If you're using PAL, then your camera needs to be set to 1/50th second shutter speed and your projector will end up dropping flicker at 16.66fps, which is pretty handy as it accomodates both regular 8 and super 8 pretty well, speed wise.

Roger